John Ross | Transforming Leadership in Maintenance

Andrew Daddo sat down with Dr. John L. Ross Jr., a 30-year veteran in maintenance and reliability, former Air Force captain, and founder of both the American Reliability and Maintenance Institute and Maintenance Innovators, his primary company of 17 years. Dr. Ross shared insights on leadership in maintenance and reliability, emphasizing that true change requires more than simply replacing leadership—it’s about fundamentals. He used the analogy of growing an apple tree to highlight that the right conditions (seed, nutrients, sunlight) are essential, just as in business, where you need the right leadership, tools, and approach to thrive.

He explained how leadership has evolved from a top-down, authoritarian model to one of inclusion and accountability. Drawing from his extensive experience, Dr. Ross described how today’s workforce, with access to technology and higher education, requires a different leadership style—one that involves engaging employees, valuing their input, and fostering a sense of ownership in the decision-making process.

Dr. Ross highlighted the importance of building leadership skills, rather than simply managing people and processes. He noted that creating an inclusive culture where everyone’s input is valued can significantly improve morale and lead to better outcomes. Finally, he discussed the significance of conferences like MAINSTREAM, where industry leaders can exchange fresh ideas, learn best practices, and inspire real change in their organizations.

Transcript

[00:00:00] This is Reliability Hero. I'm Andrew Datto and I'm with Dr. John, well, I should say Dr. John L. Ross, Jr. I love that thing about Americans, you have the junior or the, you know, yeah, yeah, dad. Um, now you look, you've been a practitioner of maintenance and reliability for over 30 years, a former captain in the Air Force.

Uh, in America, graduate, distinguished graduate of the um, the Aircraft Maintenance Officer School and the Squadron Officer School, and now running your own business, American Reliability and Maintenance Institute. Is that a fair assessment? I know there's a lot more, but. Sure. Well, that's, that's actually my second company.

My primary company is Maintenance Innovators. That's the company I started 17 years ago. Okay. Yeah, so, I've been around for a while. Alright, you've also authored three books. That's right. Sorry. We'll get to those. Why don't we start with that whole notion of, of leadership, um, and, and the change in leadership.

So in sports and in business as well, um, there's a sort of thought, well, why don't we just change the coach, [00:01:00] right? Change the coach and all will be solved. Does it actually work that way? No. In fact, I come across this quite a bit when I'm consulting, working in companies because. In maintenance and reliability, it's really the fundamentals.

Uh, there's not a lot of new creation. It's maybe repackaging stuff and saying it away that somebody, Oh, I get it now. Cause you said it differently. I had an old, uh, boss, an old mentor, if you will, that told me, he said, John, in order for anything to grow, let's say you want to grow an apple tree, you have to have the right seed.

So you have to have an apple seed, obviously. Uh, now that seed has to be, uh, planted at a certain depth for that, for that, uh, It has to be a certain depth. You have to have the right nutrients in the soil. You have to have the right amount of sunshine and rain for that to grow. And my old mentor said, now, John, what are the odds of getting all that right?

The first time. So I come across a lot of companies saying, Oh, we've tried that before. It didn't work. Understandably. We tried it before because it's a [00:02:00] fundamental. What you might need is the right seed. Maybe the nutrition's not there in the soil. A leader could bring in the nutrients and, and, and grow the people, if you will.

Okay. Sunshine and rain, you've gotta change something. If it's not working, maybe you don't have the right seed, right nutrients, right sunshine, right amount of rain. It does make me want to like, just initially anyway, that I think it's a great analogy, but how often do things work when the seeds not put.

At the right depth, you know, like you sort of go because really that's what happens with when things start to go wrong, it's just chuck it in, mate, you know, look, I know we're using this fertilizer, but no, you can actually get this one that works real good as well. But you actually just uncovered a lot of stuff here.

And, you know, there's the old biblical story of just casting the seeds about some falls on rocky ground, some falls on the path, some falls in the in the good soil, but also it's. It's when someone does figure out the recipe, if you [00:03:00] will, that, Hey, this, in order to grow an apple orchard, you need to have this.

Are we learning from that? Hey, somebody else already invented that. Let's go to a conference like we have here at mainstream. Let's go find out some ideas. Let's take those back because it's a, it's a fresh approach. It's a different way of looking at a fundamental, but take this information, go back and see if it's relevant for your organization.

And if it is, how can we make that happen? And it takes a leader to say. This is a best practice. It's relevant to our organization. Let us figure out together how we're going to make that happen. How important is the change in voice and just the fact that you've got a different voice telling you to do the same thing in possibly the same way.

I've lived through the transition where the maintenance manager was the biggest, baddest guy in the maintenance department. It was always the big guy, like a captain in a cop show. I was going to say like a prison yard and it transitioned into, uh, you know, inclusion and, and those kinds of discussions. I think it's very important [00:04:00] because, um, the people we have working in our factories and manufacturing now and around and maintenance and reliability.

They're, they're different than they were in the 1970s and 80s. I started in the 1980s and it was not Uncommon to have a technician that couldn't read. Didn't have a high school education. Hard working. Great people, for sure. And then you roll in with computers. I brought the first Commodore 64 to my workplace, right?

Right. And how did that go? Well, it was a bunch of farm boys. They thought as soon as you hit enter on that computer keyboard, you were going to launch a game. Intercontinental ballistic missile from some silo in Montana and you from the Air Force as well. So it's a different voice where you can relate to.

Now, don't misunderstand me. I'm not talking about coddling people, not holding people accountable. It's more of a voice of region, reason and inclusion. And that's something I find, uh, engaging the workforce. So you have to have the right mindset. And Andrew, if you go back, we we We're not really building leadership on our [00:05:00] technical managers.

We're building managers. We're the time management, people management, materials management, schedule management. We need to start honing in on the leadership skills, which is that where you Ask people what they think and you include them in the decisions that being made. Now, make no mistake. I'm the boss.

I'm going to make the decision, but I want input from everybody. And let's consider what our options are and play this out a couple of iterations to see where we're going with it. Okay. Do you, do you remember when that changed? When it, when it actually, when workers had a, not accountability, but had a say in their own accountability, I think I recall my moment specifically when my boss said.

Brought us all into the room is he was the new boss. He said we're gonna make decisions in this room I'm gonna ask your opinion and you're gonna have one way Yeah, and that then of course we're all looking at this guy's been boss for 27 minutes Yeah, we're looking at each other like holy heck. This guy's gonna hold us account What he was saying was I don't need you to have the idea But I need you to have an idea right [00:06:00] because I'm gonna ask you so when you're out working with your people Understand what the problems the issues are understand what the opportunities are Bring those into this conference room because we're going to make a decision in this room and that is the decision of this organization, right?

So when you hit the door, you don't get to tell your technicians, I guess what the old man's making us do right now. Here's what we're doing. Okay. Even though that decision may have been organized and formed prior. So is it about making your workers feel as if they are part of the decision, even though you may have already decided.

As managed as senior management. Well, that's what the boss was saying. Come to the meeting with a sense of what's going on and know what your people are doing. And I found that, uh, you know, morale is one of those words. That's hard to really define. If you had to define what morale means, you probably couldn't do it.

But I, from an old colleague, he said, John, to me, morale is, I have a sense that I am valued and I am valuable. And I said, okay, how do you make someone sincerely feel, know that they're valued and valuable? He said, you [00:07:00] ask them what they think. If the person's doing the job dig in a ditch for example, why wouldn't we ask them about the best way to dig a ditch?

Yeah, and then take that in the conference room say I got a great idea Let's make sure we've got the best tools and the best know so as you say 17 years in the industry. Is that right? Um, 39 years in the industry, but 17 years sorry. I was laughing at the yes, sir. It's that fabulous military thing, you know?

Um, so, okay. 39 years. Are we, are we getting better at actually doing that? Because I know, you know, there's still, and my business is not in, um, in reliability or maintenance, but there's still that thing of you, you don't get there. Reviewed or your reviews, uh, you know, how do you feel good, right. Good. You know, they're still not good at doing it, letting you know how you worked or what your thoughts are, but are we getting better at that?

I think we're, let [00:08:00] me tell you how I know that because now when I go into an organization to consult or do some training, if you've got the old school maintenance leader, it sticks out like a sore thumb. It's almost like discovering a dinosaur still alive. And. It just rubs the wrong way. And it doesn't feel like you're getting the, uh, avoiding using the word synergy because we killed that in the 1980s and 1990s, but you're not getting the complete thought process of everybody.

Let me give you an example for what you do, Andrew, what you do. I'm going to concede that you're the, you're smarter at what you do than, than I am at what you do. But you won't ever be more smarter or capable than you and me together. Right. Oh, I love it. And so that's the power. And now. Again, if you're someone's, well, no, but look, it's not just asking a bunch of dumb people what they think you have to educate your people, resource your people and make sure that what they're bringing to the table is the best thought.

You can't just hold a bunch of people in the dark and then ask them what they think and expect. They're coming up with brilliant [00:09:00] ideas. They need to understand how the business works, a complete and a comprehensive understanding of how everything works, how the budget works, how the process works, and then you engage them.

But should everyone know all those details? Yes. Right. You're not fogging people's brains up with, you know, I know, I know you're working over here on the left side of the business and, and there's a whole right side in the center and everything, but everyone should know, have an understanding of everything so they know where they're at.

Yeah. Well, the Society for Maintenance and Reliability Professionals says that if you can influence a process, good or bad, it's going to work. You are required to have a comprehensive understanding. So let's say, for example, someone in accounting, or someone in HR, or safety. They can certainly influence the process of what we do.

Shouldn't they have a comprehensive understanding? Yeah. Before they can sit down at the table. I think one of the, one of the sessions at the maintenance conference this year is about using data, but changing it from data trying to sell an [00:10:00] idea to using a narrative to sell the idea because the data gets collected.

Um, just confi You know, what? It's going to cost this. We're not going to do it, but if you can actually give a reason. This is a really boiled down version of what the session is. If you can tell a story about the reason that things need to change, as opposed to saying we need the money for this, um, but make it, make them understand in an emotional, an emotive sense, you've got a better chance of actually getting that through.

You bring up a great point. You're taking data, turning it into information, because nobody can interpret a table of numbers. When you're posting a metric or KPI, you ought to be able to explain to everyone what it's measuring, where the numerator and the denominator need to come from, and then how, you have to be able to explain to your people what they can do to affect the outcome of that metric, how to move the needle up or down, because if you're relying on them to figure it out for themselves, you're wasting a lot of time, and they may or may not know that, and there's frustration.

I'm going to explain the math to you where the numbers come from and what you can do to move the needle. And I'm going to hold you [00:11:00] accountable and resource you for success, but hold you accountable to make that happen. Isn't that really what we're trying to do? Yeah. Here's how you're being measured and here's how you control that value.

So, so mainstream, I think in an overarching way does, does that, you know, like, but across the board, like there's a, whatever, however many sessions there are, there are lots of different ways to do that. Why do you think more businesses aren't more Interested in being part of this when it's a really simple and straightforward way to to change things in a positive way What do you think is holding companies back?

The most traditional look at maintenance if you will the cost of maintenance it sees it as an expense it's in the profit loss It's not an asset. It's an expense worst case. We're liability down on the balance sheet. We're not an asset We're seen as a liability, especially if maintenance used to have breakdowns and a lot of downtime You're not seen as an asset helping the company.

You're seen as a liability or an expense. I think, and we have [00:12:00] a, we, I think there's a few presentations on it this week. Uh, seeing maintenance as a, as a profit, part of the profit model. Of course it is. I'm in the business and I have to write proposals. So it's a, it's a real benefit for you to hire me.

And let me tell you how and how much it's going to cost. But, um, Your, I'll give you an example. Your car, if you have a brand new car, Subaru for example, you gas that thing up and you just start it, you start heading west, and you could drive as far as you could drive until you run out of gas. Right? So the limiting is the gas.

797 times. As a business owner, you've got to understand what the limitations are of your equipment, because you could start up a brand new piece of equipment and run it for a certain length of time before you suffer the consequences, you know, it's a risk, probability times the consequences. But there has to be a maintenance person that's there to fill the gas tank up.

There has to be a maintenance person to rotate the tires. There has to be a maintenance person to bring the gas to the gas station and maintain the [00:13:00] equipment that builds the tire. I think a lot of people don't see it as an investment. Uh, my first boss in the civilian world, a guy named Mike Crisp, he was a real encourager to go to conferences.

He said, and take someone with you. And I, and I said, really, he said, yeah, take your maintenance manager. I was a plant engineer. Take your storeroom manager. Have conver Go to the conference, the little presentations, have discussions around the bar at night or when you're out to eat dinner, because you guys are going to come back fired up and excited about not doing something different, but doing something differently.

Again, it's fundamentals. It's the same stuff, but you're going to do it differently because you saw something that fired you up. You saw something that motivated you. It's a real investment. So, yes, I mean, like obviously, I can see that, but something I always wonder about is someone comes to a conference, they get fired up and excited and they've heard new ways and new things and new ideas.

They go back to the workplace with no one else from the workplace [00:14:00] actually made it to the conference. And they walk through the door and they go, Oh, you know, they've had a whole hallelujah moment like this. And they go, no, no, no, no, no, mate. No, that's not how we do it, mate. I teach, I teach a lot of classes in Las Vegas, just because it's a place that can hold a lot of conference space.

And I tell my class, Hey, when you go back to, when you go back to work on Monday, people are going to think that you've been on vacation. And let's face it, you've been in Las Vegas all week. There's some people here that I've already met at the conference that came here into Melbourne and Australia from different places.

And their coworkers are going to think they were on, Oh yeah, you're in Australia. How hard was it? You know, how hard did you have it? But it's absolutely right. We're not, we don't see that as the investment, but, but you have to go out and look. We're not going to get any smarter and more capable hanging around the water cooler bitching about things at work.

You got to go out and understand what else is available and opportunities and, and carry that message back. And let's learn from that. It's a real investment. Okay. It's funny you say that about going on a holiday. There was a guy on the lift yesterday [00:15:00] and he, how you going? And he goes, Oh, Oh, I'm exhausted.

Oh my God. So I assumed he'd been out, you know, I assumed that he'd, you know, and he, I said, wow mate, that's funny. But any. He'd been to the water treatment plant and he's building a, there's one here in Melbourne and it's next level and he's building one in Darwin. So he was absolutely exhausted by this day at the sucking up information.

So that's the, it looks like a holiday to others, but, but, but it most certainly is not. Let me ask you one last thing. It's about your storeroom roadmap. So 32 processes for efficiency and sustainability. You put these together. It's really a step by step. Manual of things to have a plan to follow when you put them together.

And, and put it out into the marketplace. How confident are you that people will follow it to what you're suggesting and, and, or innovate on what you're suggesting? Well, I appreciate the [00:16:00] question. This is my third book. This is the book I wanted to write my first two, uh, kind of story that had to be told.

Yes, sir. Yes. Years and years ago, a colleague asked me, and I'm embarrassed to say that I, I hadn't already thought about this. He said to me, John, there's 32 storeroom processes and practices, right? And I said, yeah, that's about right, 32. And he goes, is there an order in which, is there an order in which someone should execute those?

And I said, what are you talking about? Again, I, I, I'm embarrassed to say it now. He said, are there some that make you more effective and some that make you more efficient? And I thought, well, that's true. You want to be effective before you're efficient, or you become really efficient at being ineffective.

And he said, and then, you want to be effective and then efficient, or else you're, you become efficient at being ineffective. Right? I get people that want to go to, in the storeroom, when I do a lot of storeroom work, John, we'd like to adopt barcoding. And I'm like, you're not gonna, [00:17:00] Marconi's not gonna help you if you can't master pencil and paper.

You're not gonna be world class if you can't hang up a broom, right? Let's just face that. And the, and my colleague went on to say, and other things that you should start out like foundational, you should have these before you move on to the intermediate ones, before you get on to the advanced ones. And I thought, I've never thought about that.

So I created this roadmap, which is like a roadmap for the old fold out roadmaps in the 1970s. Follow, if you want to get here, follow this path, do this right here, and you do them in these sequential order and you'll, and you'll be successful. Now, not so much. People are starting storerooms from scratch anymore.

You've got a storm. That's not running like it should. This roadmap shows you exactly where you are. And you know what? We should have turned left at the grand Canyon, but we, we ended up turning right. No wonder we ended up in the wrong location. And I was reading the, of course, I read the book recently. It just came out about three weeks ago.

Now people go, you just read it. And I said, well, I haven't read it in book form. I haven't read it in book form. I wrote the thing. But yeah, and I was exclaiming to my wife, damn, this is really good. And she goes, she goes, [00:18:00] what? And I said, I'm sorry, I I'm reading. I'm like, I actually wrote this, but it really does explain.

All of these processes, how they're connected, which one you should do next, what it actually means translate a lot of technical stuff from other. And by the way, some of the speakers here I'm quoting in the book, cause they have fantastic products out there as well, but it, we've got to get our storeroom straight.

We just have to, it's the third rail. I don't know if you know what the third rail is. When I say third rail, it sounds like something. from a sci fi film. Well, it's in the subway trains in the U. S. They're run by electric rails. The third rail, the train runs on two rails. It picks up the power from the third rail.

So if it's something nobody wants to touch, we call it the third rail. Nobody wants to touch the storm because procurement doesn't know what they're doing and maintenance doesn't know what they're doing. And as a result, we get all screwed up. And I'm sure the pandemic caused a lot of angst with supply chain management.

We found out We knew we weren't very good. We didn't realize we were this bad. So I'm on a crusade, if you will, to get storerooms [00:19:00] figured out and we're going to make, all right. Well, the new book is the storeroom roadmap 32 processes for efficiency and sustainability. John Ross or Dr. John L. Ross jr. It's been a real pleasure talking to you.

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. That has been great. Perfect. Very good. Somebody throwing something at us.

Change the coach and all will be solved. Does it actually work that way? 

A leader could bring in the nutrients and, and, and grow the people, if you will.

 It's when someone does figure out the recipe, if you will, that, Hey, this, in order to grow an apple orchard, you need to have this.

Are we learning from that? 

 I started in the 1980s and it was not Uncommon to have a technician that couldn't read.

I don't need you to have the idea But I need you to have an [00:20:00] idea 

 if you've got the old school maintenance leader, it sticks out like a sore thumb. 

you won't ever be more smarter or capable than you and me together.

You can't just hold a bunch of people in the dark and then ask them what they think and expect. They're coming up with brilliant ideas. 

You bring up a great point. You're taking data, turning it into information, because nobody can interpret a table of numbers.

As a business owner, you've got to understand what the limitations are of your equipment, because you could start up a brand new piece of equipment and run it for a certain length of time before you suffer the consequences, 

my first boss in the civilian world, a guy named Mike Crisp, he was a real encourager to go to conferences.

He said, and take someone with you. And I, and I said, really, he said, yeah, take your maintenance manager. I was a plant engineer. Take your storeroom manager. Have conver Go to the conference, the little presentations, have discussions around the bar at night or when you're out to eat dinner, because you guys are going to come back fired up and excited about not doing something different, but doing something differently.

We're not going to get any [00:21:00] smarter and more capable hanging around the water cooler bitching about things at work.

You got to go out and understand what else is available and opportunities and, and carry that message back. 

Yes. Years and years ago, a colleague asked me, and I'm embarrassed to say that I, I hadn't already thought about this. He said to me, John, there's 32 storeroom processes and practices, right? And I said, yeah, that's about right, 32. And he goes, is there an order in which, is there an order in which someone should execute those?

And I said, what are you talking about? 

You want to be effective before you're efficient, or you become really efficient at being ineffective.

We should have turned left at the grand Canyon, but we, we ended up turning right. No wonder we ended up in the wrong location.

We just have to, it's the third rail. I don't know if you know what the third rail is. When I say third rail, it sounds like something. from a sci fi film. Well, it's in the subway trains in the U. S. They're run by electric rails. The third rail, the train runs on two rails. It picks up the power from the third rail.

So if [00:22:00] it's something nobody wants to touch, we call it the third rail. 

We found out We knew we weren't very good. We didn't realize we were this bad. So I'm on a crusade, if you will, to get storerooms figured out