Navigating the Reliability Landscape: A Conversation with Dr. Bob Platfoot

Dr. Bob Platfoot, the Principal of Covaris, an engineering advisory company, with over 30 years of experience in maintenance and asset management across various sectors. Bob shares insights into his journey from working in power stations to becoming a successful consultant and teacher. He emphasizes the importance of deep understanding, data-driven decision-making, and effective communication when dealing with the complexities of reliability engineering. The discussion also touches on the challenges of managing costs and convincing upper management of the significance of reliability efforts.

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Andrew: Reliability Hero Podcast is brought to you by the mainstream community. We'll have conversations with maintenance and reliability practitioners just like you. People who literally make stuff work on an industrial scale, and also keep economies moving. Why Hero? Because asset management tamely describes the risky and important work that you do, where a single misstep can cost millions of dollars and possibly lives.

And, because few things excite you more than making equipment and machines do more than they were ever designed to do. faster, safer, longer, and more efficiently. I'm Andrew Daddo. Welcome to the Reliability Hero podcast. 

On this episode of the Reliability Hero, Dr. Bob Platfoot, he's the Principal COVARIS. They're [00:01:00] an, they're an engineering advisory company, and Bob's had I have a 30 years experience in maintenance and asset management across utilities, mining, manufacturing, facilities, defense, and other sectors.

He's also been a teacher and obviously he's involved in consulting, so it's a pleasure to have him here. How are you, Bob? 

Bob: I'm very good, Andrew. Thank you for 

Andrew: talking to me. Is that a fair assessment of 30 years into about 15

Bob: seconds? It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's getting on. 

Andrew: We're past that timeframe. Yeah, it is. 

Bob: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Um, possibly just to explain, Covaris was stood up 22 years ago to drive advanced research in maintenance reliability. I felt we couldn't do it from a university desk, so we chose the consulting path that gave us access to data, to people with real problems, and if the research was rubbish, we didn't need.

But if the research was good, had value for people, [00:02:00] then the company could prosper. It was a very 

Andrew: acid test. How important was it for you to actually be a practitioner and then a teacher to then go on to be a successful consultant? 

Bob: It's, it's my life, Andrew. I'm going to say, I believe, um, either you're a university academic or you're a service provider like I am these days.

We're in the business to engage and care for people as individuals. And we're in the business of trying to make companies work that much better. For the good of all basically. Okay, 

Andrew: but I suppose that the question is, how important was it for you to actually understand from a practical level, what you were talking about, as opposed to just a consultant or a teaching?

I mean, and I don't, you know what I mean? 

Bob: No, I know. And I know it's about value, right? And I had a gentleman from Africa talk about this about a month ago. There's lots of people with Uh, quick phrases, the, the gift of the gab, all the rest of it. Value comes from a deep [00:03:00] and profound understanding of the assets, how they're operated, um, what is, uh, constraints and driving busy people try and do the right thing to maintain them.

You have to get into great detail to be able to provide value. Okay. You 

Andrew: started life in New South Wales Power Stations. That's correct. And then went to the University of New South Wales. Yep. How actually was the, the switch to go from the real, the real, the real work? And I mean that in, in, in adverted commas obviously, to, to teaching, uh, 

Bob: A long time ago, a long time ago in our country, public sector research, uh, where I grew up, it was, it was a very easy transition going from the Electricity Commission, Pacific Power to the university.

I was a researcher from day one, I left my undergraduate degree, the commission were very good to me. They sent me to, uh, America and Japan at a young age, they put me through a PhD. And that was about [00:04:00] using advanced research to make our power stations work better. Going to the university was a very obvious thing to do for a life of research.

That part was easy. The part transitioning from a university academic into the COVARIS world, very hard. That took years, took years upon years of trying different things, failing sometimes, winning sometimes. But now, where we're at now, we, We don't very often file can still happen, but the sheer case material and experience and knowledge, we could not have got that any other way.

And that means we're now very successful in what we deliver. 

Andrew: Okay. How, when you say it was very difficult to make that switch from, from the university to the private sector, what was difficult about it? 

Bob: I think a couple of things. One was, um, uh, still even at, in the age of, uh, late thirties, early forties and a lifetime working [00:05:00] in power stations and then across manufacturing as an academic, there was still so much we did not know.

We just, there was things we just were not good at. And so we did not deliver a very good job in some cases. So that experience helped us to grow and improve. So there's actual fundamental knowledge that only comes with experience. So my young ones that work for me now are getting the benefit because we can mentor them, we don't make the same mistakes.

That was the issue. Um. Yeah. It's a big world. There's a lot of industries, a lot of different things to cope with. You have to, in the chair that I operate now, we are across a lot of industries. You had to have that breadth of knowledge to be able to provide value. 

Andrew: Okay. In reliability engineering, um, there's obviously many facets to it, but at its core, has it always been much the same 

Bob: thing?

The fundamentals haven't changed. The fundamentals, uh, can we manage down compressible cost? [00:06:00] Do we know the, uh, the risk in our physical asset portfolio? And thirdly, do we understand how to effectively engage, communicate, and work with very busy people? Compressible cost priorities, understand the condition and the risk, work with the people.

Those fundamentals don't change. All right, which is 

Andrew: the most, uh, the most difficult of those factors? The people. 

Bob: The people's always, entering is easy. It's always the people's the hardest. 

Andrew: Okay, what about the cost? What about trying to, trying to let the, you know, the guys upstairs or the, you know, that management level actually understand the importance of 

Bob: cost?

20, 20 years ago, that was very hard. 20 years ago that we did not have the information systems. We didn't collect the data. Um, it was all surmise and, uh, experience and, and, um, thinking. These days we have the gigabytes of data. We can now bring those [00:07:00] costs out and make them defensible and defensible is an important word because the guys upstairs believe we gold plate the assets.

We have to take to them credible cases, where their costs are, where their risks are, because they're going to make a big call. They're going to be spending millions of dollars on whatever, or business. We have to have the data. We have to have the 

Andrew: facts. I sort of, I noticed a pretty strong glint in your eye there when you said, you know, 20 years is all about the experience and the, like, I'm thinking, is that in a hippie sense of the, Right on guys.

We've got to get this right. And 

Bob: it is about very, very experienced guys who are very firm in their views and who will dominate the investment committees and will sometimes intimidate their peers. And that can still happen. So they're, they're trying to do the right thing. They believe in what they're doing.

Um, but. In fact, their understanding isn't quite right, but [00:08:00] to convince a very experienced person that they're not right is the hardest of all jobs. 

Andrew: Right. And so that's where the, the, the part of data, data comes in. Precisely. Yep. All right. I have been warned actually, that you are a detail and data driven individual.

wheelhouse.

Bob: It's, it's, my world is very black and white, Andrew. So when Chris and Lisa talk to you about, I'm not the soft cuddly guy. I'm the hard anal guy, because it's got to be right. It's sometimes quite brutal. 

Andrew: Right. So, so how does the, the. People, uh, maneuvering work with, uh, black and white data. Um, 

Bob: leadership, uh, empathy, uh, and the biggest one of all the, the, the, the hallmark of all of our work here in Kavaris, total respect for the individual.

So I was teaching in Africa a few weeks ago. I had [00:09:00] senior guys in the room. I had supervised the room. I had maintainers in the room. And appreciate this is the African culture, not quite the same as the Australian culture. And I said to the maintainers, you are the most important people in this room because you touch our precious plant and I'm all about respecting you.

Now these guys aren't even allowed to close out their work orders. No one trusts them, but we trust them with our precious plant. And I was teaching about respect and it must've worked because, um, they're back on the phone tonight with me. Thank you. talking about precisely this, how to work with their teams.

Andrew: Okay. So if they, if they are the most important, I mean, so I guess my question is when you're talking to three levels of, um, Management or, you know, three, three levels of industry, do you have to change your message at all? Or is the message is literally the same for everyone? Cause I'm sure I'm, I'm wondering if you go to an [00:10:00] Australian group and say, you're, you maintainers, you're the most important.

I wonder if the top notch guys are going, you, you 

Bob: have to, um, get the nuance of your messaging, right? Hmm. You have to get that nuance right. So sometimes at one level you have to speak very bluntly and quite confrontationally. You're the most important people in the room. They're not going to forget that.

They're not going to forget that. If I'm going to a CEO, I'm not going to say to him, you're not a very important person or she's not a very important person. Yeah. But also these are policy guys. They're policy people. They've never spun spanners. They've never worked in the dirt of where they are making their money.

So we've got to talk a different language about policy and strategy and strategic engagement, but risk and money and the performance of their business, they're universal across those three layers. Okay. 

Andrew: So having not spun spanners and [00:11:00] suspecting that everyone's gold plating the, uh, the maintenance aspects.

Two phrases I haven't heard before, but absolutely love. Um, how, how difficult. Um, is it to get that message across that we probably need to be spending more money on maintaining, um, the plant and the, and the 

Bob: industry? It's challenging. Um, and you know, what's really sad, I mean, I've just got people down in power stations at the moment where the, the executive have spent.

Tens of millions of dollars, but they're still getting fires. They're still not making megawatts. They're still not getting the outcomes they want. So the executive think they've done the right thing by spending all this money. But the issue is we haven't spent it wisely. We haven't spent it on the right things and nor have we led our people to be productive.

We have not led our people to utilize the funding that we've given them. And our senior guys can't do that. So that's a middle management issue. This is that other layer. How do you, again, tell someone's been [00:12:00] running teams for 30 years, you are not leading this team well, how do you do that? Only through discussion, evidence, fact based, um, mentoring.

It can be a long process and sometimes you fail. Yeah. You have to live with that. You 

Andrew: will fail. With the issues that there, I want to talk about failure in a second. With the issues that you just described, um, is that a failure in planning as well? 

Bob: It's always a failure in planning. Right. I'll tell you, I'll tell you why.

I'll tell you why maintenance. Um. in the delivery can fail. We are so busy trying to do the right thing. We are so busy jumping, putting a Superman suit on because people are screaming the production line stopped, or that's failed, or something's gone wrong, or in a hospital working at the moment, they're screaming that you guys are taking too long to fix problems.

And therefore the maintenance guys think they're doing the right thing, but because they failed the plan, they may fix something, but they're not maintaining that asset. And what we're [00:13:00] after is the uptime of that asset to give us a sustainable business. And maintenance guys often don't have the maturity to appreciate that, but the folk pulling their chain who are driving them, they also don't appreciate 

Andrew: that.

Yeah. So somewhere in the middle is someone maybe like you and Kavaris who actually understand who's pulling whose chain and how hard they should be pulling 

Bob: it. That's our job. And consistently we are told you are slowing this place down. Of course you are. Consistently we're told, but we are. Yeah. 

Andrew: Yeah.

But that's 

Bob: the job. Exactly. If you're gonna have you, if you want your assets, like, how could you work with me if your microphone wasn't working, your computer died and all that, what, where would you be? You rely on those assets. You take them for granted that they're going to work. Yeah. No difference in a power station or a hospital or whatever, same deal.

Andrew: Okay. Uh, have you had your, your personal biggest learnings through 

Bob: success or through failure? Through failures. I vaguely [00:14:00] remember the wins over, and you have to have had wins, otherwise I wouldn't have the job I have, but I remember every failure I've made over 40 years. And some of them I absolutely cry for because I've let people down because back then I didn't know enough and by remembering those and reminiscing and tasting those failures continually, you work hard not to repeat them.

Okay. Did the people 

Andrew: around you have the knowledge? That you required in 

Bob: those failures because the trouble is in my job. It's been a very different career I've been expected from a young age. Not I'm doing Okay Innovating new knowledge new techniques people trust me and Occasionally, I let those people down and I've never forgot that 

Andrew: is and So this comes back to a discussion I've had with someone else [00:15:00] in that, that thing of imposter syndrome that you've said, I mean, I can do it because you thought you could do it or you thought you should be able to do it, or you just took the chance and stood up and if it worked out, geez, that would have been fantastic.

In 

Bob: this world, Andrew, there is a principle called the Dunning Kruger effect, which people can go Google and Dunning Kruger says, um, The most confident person in the room is likely to be the least competent person in the room. And the least confident person in the room, i. e. humble, is likely to be the most competent person in the room.

There's a whole bunch of psychology behind that. 

Andrew: Okay. So when, when did you become aware of the Dunning Kruger effect and did that change your It 

Bob: gave me insights. It gave me insights. Uh, I had a very successful campaign in 2007 in BHP up in the Pilbara. I worked with BHP [00:16:00] and part of a team and we absolutely lifted the work management of iron ore across port minor rail, 650 people trained, scheduled compliance through the roof, backlog down.

BHP did a great job. And, but we were part of it. The next year, they got me into a shutdown project. One part went well, the other part, I was a complete idiot and stuffed the whole thing up. That keeps you humble. 

Andrew: Right. Do you think, do you actually, did you actually stuff the whole thing up or are you just being a little bit hard on yourself?

Bob: No, no. I'll tell you why. Um. Um. Um. I realized when I was going through the issues, I'd actually set the whole team on the wrong path. And so it's a, it's a technicality, but when we do very big complex plant, there's a certain way you do those sorts of things, big shutdowns, big overhauls. And we've got those sort of processes down pat, but when you're doing a piece of kit down at the port and you just a very [00:17:00] routine piece of it's out, you think it's a shutdown.

But it's a very different style of work. I set the logic wrong. And so that's my fault. All right. So 

Andrew: at what point do you, um, do you either make amends or put your hand up and say, you don't get 

Bob: a second chance. Okay. In my business, you don't, they'll just hate you. Um, they'll just hate you. You're stuffed it up.

This guy treat nothing. And that's 

Andrew: just part of life. Okay. Does everyone learn from it though? 

Bob: Probably not. Okay. Probably not. Because people are under too much pressure to revisit. That didn't work. He's an idiot. Hopefully the next consultant or expert they get in will turn this around and make it better.

Yeah. You are very black and white, aren't you? It's just 

Andrew: life. I just wonder who you are. It's just life. Look, you are without question one of Australia's top thought leaders in reliability engineering. That's not disputed. What keeps you awake at night? That's [00:18:00] that three o'clock in the morning. 

Bob: I think, um, for my country, in my career, we made a lot of things.

We, we delivered a lot of things. We did fantastic work. There used to be one of the world's world leading aluminum refineries up in Arnhem Land at Gove. Um, that did absolutely fantastic work and that's all gone. And what keeps me up at night is Australians are not always in control of their own industries.

Which means that we lose. So we did some fantastic work in this country and we still do fantastic work. And we're a wonderful engineering nation. But what keeps me up is I wonder, will the young ones have the opportunities that I was given by the old ones who built the country that I inherited. That's, are we going to build fantastic plant that's going to be world leading and world beating and I would do anything [00:19:00] I could to help Australia be more competitive in that space.

All right. 

Andrew: So as an educator, how do you help make that happen? 

Bob: We, we take away waste. We, um, help existing Australian companies to be more competitive. So we've got an opportunity at the moment, um, with a very large company. Um, they're under huge, uh, financial stress, cost of energy is going through the roof, uh, contract labor costs are going up, cost of inputs are going up.

It's hitting their margins big time. What can we do to help them recover their margins and take on a more competitive international stance? That's where I hope that we get that job to help them achieve that. All right. Um, 

Andrew: so you want to make Australia great again. Big time. As the phrase would go. Yep. Um, how do you get young people interested in maintenance and reliability or 

Bob: is that not an issue?

Oh, it's a big issue and, and the greatest source of [00:20:00] pride I have, the greatest source of pride. In Kvarus is my young ones. When a young boy just out of university said to me, Bob, I really believe in this company talking about Kvarus. When I have very low churn in my Gen Ys, my Gen Ys, uh, have come to me, they've been brought up proper, they've learned their trade, they're now walking with confidence, they're excited by what they're achieving.

That to me has been the most successful aspect of Kvarus is the young ones that we've trained and are putting out into the world. It's not 

Andrew: just about money, is it? It's never about money. Ah, sometimes surely it's about money. 

Bob: Oh, come on. Money is about putting a roof over your head. Yeah. Um, once your roof is over your head, how much more money do you need?

Andrew: Uh, well, I think, uh, in this day and age, you need a lot. It's just, no, no, don't you think, I mean, and I think we're all different. I, [00:21:00] I remember being, always being appreciative of a job, like any work I could, I always really was appreciative. And I, uh, like, I don't know for a fact, but it feels like these days as well, it's not really for me.

This one, I'll just, you know, gut it out and the, 

Bob: the, the Gen Ys I've got. Um, money has to be fair, so we use the transparent pay scales of engineers that are out there. Uh, we talk about where, how our profits are invested, including one third into the bonus scheme, so it's fair. But what's really important to them.

Do they love their job? Are they proud of their job? Do we give them a flexible lifestyle? Some of their peers are earning double what I pay up in the mines on fly and fly out, but those young ones would never have the lifestyle or the pride or the breadth of experience that I'm giving to my young ones.

Alright. How, how 

Andrew: important is education with, um, uni A University and b, when once they first get out of university and, and taste the, the real world? It, it, it's 

Bob: essential because, [00:22:00] um, they need to have a bedrock of knowledge. They need to have that be. If they don't, we're gonna have to retool 'em up and get some additional courses.

In this country, the university is good while they're young and gives them a bit of a basis, but now we have many educational paths in Australia. Australia is a great educational country. Um, I like the IPWEA courses that go to our councils that are giving a fantastic education to people. So there's many sources of education.

Besides the traditional, um, uh, providers available to get ideas, just, just get new ideas, new thinking, innovation, be different. That's what I want from, not just my young ones, I want from my old bastards as well. Be different, be innovative, uh, creative and education gives you that. 

Andrew: Bob, as a, as a thinker, is every idea a good idea?

Bob: Every decision [00:23:00] as against not making a decision is a good decision. Okay. When they come to me with ideas that I don't like. The old Dean of Harvard Business School, the guy that was there in port and all those guys, if he didn't like an idea, he talked around the subject until they forgot about it. If it was a good idea, why the hell aren't you on a Boeing jet going to that country and doing five times more than what you said?

Okay. You see the 

Andrew: difference? I do. I most definitely see the difference. Is an, is a new idea, a good, all new ideas, a good idea just in terms of getting thinking going because you've got to create a culture of, 

Bob: listen, No idea is stupid. No idea is stupid. Whether we act on it or we evolve on it. Yeah. Yeah.

But certainly to stand still, to stand still is the worst thing you can do. 

Andrew: Right. So have you ever said to anyone, listen, that's a really stupid idea, uh, but I'm not going to act on it, which makes it okay. Only [00:24:00] to 

Bob: my son. 

Andrew: How many kids have you got? 

Bob: I got two. All right. Okay. Good. 

Andrew: Um, have you had a mentor on your time, Bob, if this has been someone who's really, and how have they shaped you if that's the case?

I. 

Bob: I. I can't say that I've had a mentor. I've had, uh, experienced people find the time to, uh, when I was younger, to put time. I've... All through the 40 odd years, had people who found the time, um, I could have had a guy called Andrew Jardine out of Canada, but I didn't have the wit to understand that until really he was retired and I was out of the university system.

So there are some very high quality people, but, and I, I felt that I wished I had someone, I wished I'd had someone who would have stopped me making mistakes that rankle to this day. So is 

Andrew: that a job that you give [00:25:00] yourself with your young 

Bob: people? That is my job. That is my job. I am the safe dad who looks after them to ensure it's going to go well.

That's my job. 

Andrew: Do you, um, let them know about your failures in helping them through? Yeah. Every time. And do you enjoy that? Is that, is that 

Bob: like a, I mean, it's kind of. It's what I'm here for and it's what I'm here and, uh, it's also been in companies that have trusted me, not all of them, but some of them, and dad has come to visit.

Dad's come to yell at us when being stupid or dad's come to help us out and dad's watched us grow up until we've got ISO certification or we've achieved some goal. Sometimes that is the most wonderful of all jobs to see, uh, an organization. Grow and see the people grow and to the point that some of their people, they leave the organization, set their own company, or they do something else.

And you're still in some ways, a mentor and a advisor to them. Yeah. Okay. 

Andrew: Um, is there a [00:26:00] moment, uh, that you've initiated or been involved with that you can really point to and say, that is the best of me. I know you said about the, you know, your mistakes, you never forget them, but is there the best, do you have your pyramid somewhere already structured to go, ah, that bloody Bob Blackford, ah, that was me.

Bob: There's, there's been. There's been some companies like that where, um, you think I did good there. Yeah. I did. I don't want to say what they are, but I, and you also. It's like a good port wine, you just swill around your mind and you reminisce and that keeps you going too, eh? It keeps you going. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, the wins, 

Andrew: yeah.

Yeah. The, you know, there's the singles between the fours and the pairs. 

Bob: You don't, you don't get that many of them, but when you get them, it's, it is sweet. 

Andrew: Is there something you look at and you think, God, I wish I thought of that? 

Bob: [00:27:00] Uh, an earlier embrace of some technology, which we're only now coming into, um, getting some of my, uh, I've just stood up a data science group within Kvarus.

Um, I wish maybe I'd gone a bit earlier than what I've done, but maybe it wasn't, wasn't time. You know, we, we need to grow into it. I think, um, as I keep saying to anybody, uh, we're in the age of industry 4. 0. This is the fourth industrial revolution. Um, this is the time and there's a lot of, uh, crap spoken about data science.

It's a lot of, uh, stupid statistics that have always been with us, but to get true insights out of rubbish data, uh, to really look at vast data sets and get stories distilled that will make a difference in the workplace, um, we need great technologies for that sort of thing. Right. How important 

Andrew: is the story?

Bob: The [00:28:00] story is everything. Data and reports are just things that you can dismiss. A story will stay with a person forever. Okay. 

Andrew: And finally, um, do you have a mantra or something that you live by, something that you occasionally write in the steam in the mirror for you? Drag that razor across your face. Make shit happen.

That'd be good for your bikie jacket, right? 

Bob: It's a little value. It's a little value. Yeah, make a, make a difference in the, in the plant, in the, in the hospital, the airport, the, the power station. Make shit happen. Great. Make it better for people. 

Andrew: Great. Bob, thanks very much for your time. Dr. Bob Flatfoot, Principal and Managing Director of Covaris.

Fantastic. Bob, thanks. Older Mr. 

Bob: Andrews, nice to meet you. Yeah, you too. Alright, take care.[00:29:00]