Mastering the Art of Maintenance: Michelle Ash

The Reliability Hero Podcast, where real-life heroes in the maintenance and reliability field come together to share their experiences and insights. Hosted by the dynamic Andrew Daddo, this podcast delves into the world of practitioners who are passionate about pushing the limits of machinery and equipment to achieve extraordinary results.

Joining Andrew on this episode is the remarkable Michelle Ash, a true industry leader with over two decades of experience in mining and manufacturing. Michelle's journey from a general engineer to her current role as the technology executive at Ooz Minerals is nothing short of inspiring.

As the conversation unfolds, Michelle reveals the surprises she encountered along her path to success, including unexpected opportunities that pushed her beyond her comfort zone. With the support of visionary mentors and a willingness to embrace challenges, Michelle's rise in the industry has been awe-inspiring.

Drawing on her diverse educational background, which includes engineering, business, psychology, and economics, Michelle embodies the spirit of a lifelong learner. Her thirst for knowledge has not only propelled her career but also honed her ability to understand and influence people, making her an exceptional leader.

Andrew and Michelle delve into the often-underestimated role of engineers as both creators and communicators. They explore the challenges of selling innovative ideas and the importance of building relationships and understanding individual perspectives. Michelle's candid anecdotes and genuine enthusiasm for driving change shine through, leaving listeners inspired and eager to tackle their own professional journeys.

Prepare to be captivated as Michelle shares her unique insights into bridging the gap between technical expertise and people skills. Her infectious passion for continuous learning and adaptability is a testament to the transformative power of embracing new ideas and perspectives.

Fascinating discussion with the recently appointed head of BHP’s Copper Assets, Michelle Ash – her time in maintenance, leadership, women and diversity in heavy industry, and automation.

Transcript

Andrew: [00:00:00] The Reliability Hero Podcast is brought to you by the mainstream community. We'll have conversations with maintenance and reliability practitioners just like you. Whether you take iron ore out of the ground, keep power plants running, fix airplanes, trains, conveyor belts or turbines. Few things excite you more than making equipment and machines do more than they were ever designed to do faster, safer, longer, and more efficiently.

Andrew: Let's just say you keep economies moving. I'm Andrew Daddo. Welcome to the Reliability Hero Podcast.[00:01:00] 

Andrew: This is Reliability Hero. Andrew Daddo is my name, and I'm joined today by Michelle Ash. Now, you would've expected to see her at mainstream in 2022, um, to do a keynote. Uh, but it didn't quite work out because OS Minerals, the company where she works was under well intense interest from B H P. She's been with the mining industry and manufacturing sectors for over 20 years.

Andrew: Uh, she's been with Ooz Minerals since 2022 as the technology executive. She's accountable for I c CT, including digital robotics and automation mining technology and transformation. And before that, she was CEO of Desalt Systems. Govia. Uh, which was the software division. So she's done a lot. She's done a lot of study as well, and she's done exceptionally well.

Andrew: So welcome to Reliability Hero, Michelle. Big intro. 

Michelle: Thank you. That's a fantastic intro. Yeah. Well, I'm very excited to be here, so thank you for having me. 

Andrew: Your rise from general engineering and mining mm-hmm. To, um, your place [00:02:00] now has been, I mean, I mean it's been a long, long haul. But it's also a pretty amazing rise.

Andrew: Yeah. What surprised you along the way? 

Michelle: Uh, I think what surprised me most was some. Opportunities that I was offered when I really didn't think I was necessarily ready for that opportunity. Um, and some very supportive people that have, that have helped my career along the way. So, you know, to give you an example, when I was, so I originally started as a blasting engineer.

Michelle: I was on the mining engineering side. Um, and then after a couple of years in, in mining and. Planning, um, I was offered a role as maintenance superintendent of a truck shop and, uh Right. You know, it was a fantastic role and, and started me into sort of the reliability side, um, of the mining business. Um, but you know, again, a very supportive manager and general manager who saw something in my capabilities in terms of leadership, um, that they could use [00:03:00] and trans transfer from mining.

Michelle: To, uh, to maintenance. So, uh, and, and I think it's important for all of us to take those opportunities no matter how scary they are. Um, because sometimes they're really daunting, um, when a door's opened like that. So, 

Andrew: so you said maintenance engineer of a truck shop. 

Michelle: Yeah, so I was actually, I was the superintendent.

Michelle: That was Rio, right? Yeah. That was Rio, yeah. 

Andrew: Okay. So was that an, was that, and when, so when they offered that to you Yeah. Were you like Yes. Or did you go, what? Or you know, like so. Did you look around? Do you, I mean, do you look around at the other people who are probably in line for the job and, and, and wonder why 

Michelle: me?

Michelle: Yeah. Look, a a bit of both. I mean, on one level you look around and you go, oh, am I the best? There are other people here that might be able to do it better, differently. Um, and then, yeah, but also part of you goes, oh man, this is gonna be so exciting. I have never done anything like this. You know, what made me [00:04:00] comfortable in the end of taking that step and, and every time that same like really weird challenge has been offered is I look at, um, you know, so what is my generic skill base?

Michelle: You know, so in this case it was around leadership and cultural change and asking the right questions and challenging people from an engineering perspective. Um, And, and you know, and I remember that, that great Albert Einstein, um, quote, which is that, you know, problems that we have today can't be solved with the thinking that created them.

Michelle: Um, and you know, so, you know, Being prepared to just bring different thinking to those situations. Um, yeah. 

Andrew: Now you're, um, you're a student. Like you are, like, so I, when I Google stalked to you, I went through your, um, I went through your education Yeah. Background, right? So it's an engineering degree at Melbourne Uni, first of all.

Andrew: Mm-hmm. Then you're at Curtin for a graduate. Uh, diploma in business. Yep. You went and did psych and philosophy at Deacon? [00:05:00] Yes. Yep. Um, Melbourne Business School and then, um, an economics degree at Melbourne Uni. Yes. And so this is all from 89 through to 2010? 

Michelle: Uh, yes. Yeah, that would be right. So, 

Andrew: so, and almost, almost constantly studying.

Andrew: Mm. And whilst also working overseas. 

Michelle: Yeah, you make me sound lazy in the last 10 years, well, what was I doing the last decade? Well, 

Andrew: no, it's, it's really interesting you say, it's interesting that you say that because I think about it the other way going, holy crap, don't you just get your job and, and this is great.

Andrew: And Yeah. You know, roll on. So, so what is it about the learning and that Einstein quite as well, you know, it's like, yeah. So you clearly, you're clearly a student of people and, and the way they operate as well as machinery. 

Michelle: Yeah, no, absolutely. So just so I, I love learning. Um, and uh, and I guess the one great thing about the mining industry is often you're in, uh, you're in outback towns and you either like, should I study, should I go to the pub?

Michelle: And I think my liver was quite [00:06:00] happy that I decided to study quite a few times. Uh, yeah, no, but look, I, I think constant learning, lifelong learning is one of the most important attributes of a leader. Um, so whether that is learning from, you know, our team members from our kids, which we spoke about, where before we started the, the podcast about how great it is to be surrounded by young people that teach us and, and help us learn about.

Michelle: Some of the changes and things that are happening, uh, for them within, uh, within the world, um, but also academically, you know, learn things. Um, and, and I think it's important to balance those up. I've always been interested yes. In the academic side, you know, I love engineering. Economics I found fascinating because it's a combination of sort of maths, which I loved obviously.

Michelle: And, um, and people and psychology. Um, really enjoyed psychology cuz it gave me a much. Deeper insight into, you know, how people tick, how they [00:07:00] think. Um, because certainly when I first started in leadership roles, um, I, I felt, you know, singular ill prepared to understand people. Cause I'd, you know, I'd done maths and stem and, you know, engineering up until then.

Michelle: Um, and I think this, the ability to broaden your, your. Knowledge range, broaden, um, and, and just constantly learn. So, you know, nowadays it's, it's, you know, a lot of what I'm learning is, is how I influence other people and, and, you know, both good and bad. And, and you know, how do I. Change that nuance at different organizations, um, have different cultures.

Michelle: How do I influence that? How do I, you know, change my behavior to, uh, to, to best suit those situations? Um, but I'm gonna have to think of something else to study. Maybe I have to do a master was in mineral economics or something. Oh, you know, 

Andrew: the language. I feel the language is,

Andrew: Dealing with people in dealing with people in different [00:08:00] ways and learning how to do that. And I know there's no one answer yes and no one simple answer because we're all, you know, entirely different. But one of the things about engineers certainly is that I guess they're well known for not being.

Andrew: Necessarily People. People. Yeah. Um, if I could say that in the, which, which is unf, I mean it's unfair. Yes. Outside, inside the engineering world, the, it's a very people-based business, but for outside the, the, the engineering world, it's like, what are you talking about? Yeah. 

Michelle: Yeah. Look, and, and it's, you know, it's, it's interesting.

Michelle: So I think there's a couple of different factors in all of that. So I, you know, there are some people that are just generally more interested in technical things, mathematics, et cetera, and find people, you know, confusing, frustrating, confounding. Um, and, and then, you know, I, so I think there is a little bit of.

Michelle: Let's call it, you know, nature in there, our preferences. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and then, you know, I think some [00:09:00] of it is also, you know, nurture education. You know, one of the things that I was struck by, certainly my time of, of learning engineering, I think it has changed at universities somewhat, but I think there's a long way for us to go, um, is that we didn't.

Michelle: We don't teach engineers who are naturally most probably attracted to science. So they ended up in, in those choosing those, those, um, degrees rather than going into, you know, a, a more social or more people orientated degrees. Um, we don't teach them much around how to work in teams, you know, how to work with other people, how to interact.

Michelle: Um, and you know, I've found that, you know, when you give, um, some engineers that training now there're always gonna be some people that just prefer working on their own and, and doing their own thing. And that's great. Um, and so you wrap a team around them that then can do the influencing of people. Cause I mean, the challenge for all engineers is we design new things, you know, that's part of our, our, our basis of being.

Michelle: And so as soon as you design new things, you've gotta get people [00:10:00] to do things differently or to use that thing or to, you know, to implement that improvement idea that's come up. Um, so there's, you know, every engineer. Needs either some of those skills or somebody to help them and, and I think that's the great thing.

Michelle: Yeah. A around a, about a team is you don't have to have everybody having all of the skills, all of the talent, et cetera. It's about accepting that we are diverse. That, you know, we do have different skills, different capabilities that we bring. Yes, we can improve them and, and you know, there's, that's that lifelong learning thing.

Michelle: But if you wrap a nice diverse team around people, um, then I think then you can also be super effective. Um, but then you've gotta manage that diversity and, uh, yeah, both as a leader, having people that are different to you in the team. Cuz by definition that's what's gonna happen. You go like, oh gosh, you know, That, that's a great thing on me because it's different to the way I think or the way I do things.

Michelle: Um, but also managing the team, um, because you know, if you've got very [00:11:00] different people in the team, you've gotta sort of get the team to understand and accept that beautiful difference that that person is bringing. And then, yeah, you know, sometimes we have that shadow side that you have to manage.

Michelle: That's related to that diversity. Yeah. Or, or that strength. 

Andrew: And I, it's interesting, I can see you, but no one else can see you. And I love that when you're talking about the difficult things, your face just breaks into this beautiful big smile. Um, just you, you made that good point about the engineers. They make things and create things, and then the, one of the difficulties is, is selling that story up the line.

Andrew: Yeah. I suppose. So when you started, you know, with your engineering career Yep. How hard was it for you to sell your ideas and then juxtapose to that, now that you are in the leadership role and you've, and have been as such for some time, what's it like when, how do you react when someone tries to sell something up to you?

Michelle: Yeah, no, it's a, it's a good idea. So, uh, good question. I, so, look, [00:12:00] when I first started, I was absolutely rubbish at selling my ideas, um, because I, you know, as all engineers do, you go, ah, this idea is brilliant. You know, and I had this fantastic attraction and, you know, um, heartfelt warmth towards my idea, or, you know, the idea that.

Michelle: That even the team had decided. Um, and so, you know, of course it's sort of like you're almost hurt when people are sort of either critiquing, criticizing, yeah. You know, whatever that might be your idea. Um, and, and so learning to not only build relationships, Um, ahead of presenting an, you know, an, an idea or, or a, um, uh, you know, a change to people.

Michelle: And so certainly, you know, when I was working with Blast Crew or with, um, the, the maintenance teams, you know, building those relationships so that when I did come with a change I needed them to make or a different idea. It, it wasn't Michelle, this distant person [00:13:00] with this bizarre idea. It was Michelle, the person I know and understand with something that there, okay, let's listen to see whether that's gonna be good for us.

Michelle: When you go up the line though, um, you know, it's, it's around, it's the same thing. It's building that relationship, understanding what is important for that person. How do they like to, to receive or understand information. Cuz of course, you know, you can tell I'm, I'm verbally, uh, you know, very expressive.

Michelle: And so, you know, I wanna get in there and I wanna talk to people and you know, we give them all sorts of information and you know, I had a lot of people say to me, Michelle, just tell us the facts. You know, we don't want all that verbiage. Get short, sharp. But then you've got other people that want. The background.

Michelle: Want that context do short, sharp, yeah. So, so it's, it's all about understanding how do they best understand. And then I think the other thing I really had to learn, and you know, what I spend a lot of my time, um, teaching others about who are presenting to me now is how do you put a [00:14:00] business case around these ideas?

Michelle: You know, so what do you. What's the problem you're trying to solve? And, and why is that problem important? And if you solve that problem, what's the value uplift? You know? So whether that's a financial value, whether that's a behavioral or speed, or, you know, ease value, but, but you've gotta sell people the value and the problem that you're trying to solve.

Michelle: Um, whether that's, you know, At the board level, at, you know, executive level or, um, you know, at, at maintenance level. And I, I think that's the one problem that engineers often have. And I see this in startups that I work with. I see this with the engineers I work with. We love the technical solution. And so we start trying to explain to people a technical solution.

Michelle: And then you start seeing people's eyes glaze over and they're starting to nod off on you. Um, yeah. And what they wanna know first is what's the problem you're trying to solve and why should they care about that problem? Being solved and what's the, you know, what's the value uplift, and then here's my [00:15:00] solution.

Michelle: And then it's about knowing that person as to whether they want the solution short, sharp, and clear, or whether they want it, you know, with background and context and verbiage and, you know, other things. Okay. 

Andrew: So, so then, so, so there's a strong case that you are saying is that a really good idea might never get through if it's, if you can't actually manage to, to, to get it to the right people in the right way.

Andrew: Uh, 

Michelle: look, absolutely. You know, I've, I've had many, many what I think are fantastic ideas never actually get implemented, um, because I might, so can you think of any, any examples? Uh, look, um, well, you know, e even, um, You know, even trying to simplify, um, some, you know, more recently in my last, um, couple of roles trying to simplify the, um, the, the planning processes, um, and to, to drive, you know, multiple input simultaneously.

Michelle: Um, and, [00:16:00] and you know, again, it should, uh, you know, great idea if it should be able to, you know, truncate the time that it takes to do something. You know, whether that's a shut, whether that's a, yeah, uh, you know, a construction design, whatever it might be. Um, but you know, if you don't sell that idea appropriately, cuz you know, suddenly I'm starting to talk to some millennials, get co-design parallel work, you know, Uber collaboration, um, gen X like me, you know, baby boomers, we go like, oh my God, that just sounds like craziness and hard work and multiple things happening simultaneously.

Michelle: And you know, that's just a whole heap of complexity we don't need in what's already a, a complex construction project. Um, So, you know, if you don't sell that idea well all they see is the negative. Um, and yeah, you know, certainly for a couple of organizations that I've, you know, tried to sort of sell this idea on, especially in construction too, um, and you know, how to parallel a lot in construction so that we [00:17:00] can truncate time.

Michelle: Um, it, it just gets into the far too hard basket. It's all, all I can see now is the risks. I can see lots of effort. Where's the real benefit? Will I get that? Is it too risky? You know, it's all that. 

Andrew: Yeah. Is it? But that's one of the problem, isn't it? For that, for that middle aged. Cohort. Yes. I mean, one of the things you were gonna talk about, which you didn't get to talk about at mainstream Yeah.

Andrew: Was that people need to innovate at the same speed as the technology changes. Yeah. And as just the young people. Yeah. Yeah. So, oh, you, so you've gotta change, you've gotta be able to move faster than the technology that's moving. Yes. We did. Yeah. 

Michelle: Okay. Because you know, if, so the idea around that basically is if we, if we, if we innovate slower than the technology or at the same speed as the technology, technology, new technology will keep coming through before we've even implemented the benefits of the old technology.

Michelle: Um, so the, the rate at which we innovate has to be [00:18:00] faster than the rate at which technology improves. Um, so that we can then bed down. Those changes, those innovations. Get the behavioral, get the change, get the value, and then as the next wave of technology comes through, that's gonna make a substantive IM improvement.

Michelle: Then we start working with that one. Then we start, um, you know, so people get used to not only the change, um, the pace of change, but also then we can keep up with, um, not every small change in technology. I mean, if you think about Apple products, for example, um, you know, apple products have. Big changes every couple of, um, models.

Michelle: So the latest one has had some quite substantive, not this is an ad for Apple, but you know, substantive changes, uh, to their iPhone. Um, but the last couple were just sort of nuances. So I'm not talking about the nuances. I'm talking about. It's got rounder edges. Yeah, exactly. It's got, you know, and so, 

Andrew: and so what advice then for, um, for people dealing with that middle age, middle management, um, they were, who are [00:19:00] reluctant?

Andrew: I mean, look, because I know. Listening to the speakers at mainstream and they talk about tech and ai and, and I sit there going, don't want it. I'm like, I actually, you know, and it's really like I, and, and I'm, and I'm wary. And so I'm Exactly what, yeah. If I'm not in the, the business, I'm in this, I'm in the same business emotionally Yes.

Andrew: Um, of being scared. So is there a, is there a way to deal with that, to try and sell that through Look 

Michelle: ab Absolutely. So for, for me it's just, it's wor, it's about. Working with those people even more. So, you know, the one piece of advice I gave to young leaders, but it's most likely exactly the same for Young, Inno, or you know, not even young innovators and engineers.

Michelle: If you are avoiding a conversation because you think it's gonna be hard or uncomfortable, then that's the very time you need to have that conversation. So, you know, often we avoid those people when we're. Designing when we're, you know, creating an idea, we avoid those people that we think are gonna be [00:20:00] negative or tough to deal with or whatever.

Michelle: Um, and that just makes it worse because then they just get more negative and more, this isn't what I wanna do and I don't wanna make these changes. If we interact with those people constantly, we engage them, we get them involved in the design, in the, so we're co-creating now. We are much more likely to not only have got them to board in, but now the thing that they were scared of, they've had some experience of, you know, so we've done these little MVPs, minimum viable product, getting up to the big release.

Michelle: Um, and you know, they've, they see a piece of them in that final product. Um, so, you know, an example when I was in Barrack, um, was we needed to get people to, um, digitize. So they go go from writing things on a piece of paper or, or. Communicating on the radio. You know, I've just done a truckload, I've just done this, I've just done that.

Michelle: Um, we wanted them to, in real time, punch it into a device, um, so that we could, you know, do [00:21:00] the simultaneous, instantaneous planning sort of process. Um, and. Everybody said to me, you know, Michelle, people are gonna reject this. You know, they've got big fingers, they've got whatever it is. Um, and so we, we started engaging the, the guys that were gonna use and, you know, and we said, you know, you can have, it had to be an iOS device because of the security requirements, but you know, you can have a little iPhone, you can have a, whatever they called, the medium-sized ones at the time.

Michelle: You can have an iPad, you know, whatever size you want, you choose your device. Um, yeah, we're gonna look at your fingers. 

Andrew: Choose the appropriate device, 

Michelle: we're gonna issue them to you. So it's your device, you know, you're gonna have to take it home and love it. Um, and, but we also got them working through with us.

Michelle: You know, did they like things on the left? Did they like things on the right, touching, playing, you know, so by the time we released, The devices. Everybody had touched, field played, they liked the colors, they'd done things on left and rights and all that sort of stuff. Um, and what was really interesting was actually we had the fastest take up in [00:22:00] the middle age, you know, older group.

Michelle: So you know, people, let's just say, you know, I dunno whether people like 40 plus saying they're old or not, but yeah, let's just say 40 plus. Um, so millennial above millennials, um, and, and in fact it was the millennials that, so the, you know, the twenties to forties, um, that we had most challenges with. And again, something we just had hadn't thought about.

Michelle: They're sitting there going, yeah, but. Hang on. It's still not as easy to use as the devices I have at home. You know, like there's still, it's not as intuitive in the way they see intuitive. Um, which is, which is actually really different, which is sort of also interesting when you're trying to manage, um, you know, multi-generational cohorts.

Michelle: Um, but, um, Anyway, they, they were, they were fine. They still used it. Yeah. No, it's, they just have no concerns. 

Andrew: It's a, yeah, and I guess rightly so, so with millennials and their, and, and their desire to, to grow and need to be taught [00:23:00] and trained Yeah. And, and move up the company, is there a, a strategy for them that you would.

Andrew: Um, suggest 

Michelle: looks so, absolutely. So, I, I mean, I find, um, you know, that cohort between 20 and 40, let's say, um, real. So they, they wanna get involved, they're passionate, they have, um, great ideas. They're highly collaborative by nature. Um, most often, um, They want to do new and interesting things and, and often are very comfortable to work on a project basis.

Michelle: So, you know, I wanna do this project, which is interesting, exciting, and then I'll go and do this other project. Um, and so certainly getting, I think that cohort engaged and involved in some of these improvement projects, giving them something to stretch, um, towards, um, you know, Building some of their, um, leadership skills and capabilities through that project, um, sort of process, um, really helps sets them up for success, both in terms of, you know, building those skills, building those behaviors, um, but [00:24:00] also getting that visibility so that when.

Michelle: You know, um, different roles become available. Um, people already know they've seen them and then they can, um, you know, quite easily be part of that. So this is somebody who we would like to select into that role, um, because we know them, we've, we've experienced them. Um, so I think giving. Much more maybe than than prior generations that that opportunity to do lots of projects and, and build that capability is I think important.

Michelle: Um, and stretch and challenge. And then, you know, the different things to learn, not only practically on the job, um, you know, quite often very sort of hands-on or real time capability. Um, but you know, also give opportunities to, especially there's so many great online, uh, programs and courses and things like that, that.

Michelle: Um, that also can engage, uh, people as well as, you know, the traditional sort of, um, you know, attendance at, at different conferences and, you know, universities and different things. But there's [00:25:00] just such a, a great variety of things now to get people, uh, engaged and involved. Um, but I think that the. The biggest difference with millennials, that's all the, you know, the 20 to 40, um, is those 500 page user manuals that we used to have for, you know, SAP or whatever it was.

Michelle: And the, and the five day training programs that we used to put people through, they do not work. Um, you know, it's gotta be a lot shorter, sharper, let's try some things, you know, video orientated. If it's not intuitive, then you know, it, it. Becomes very frustrating. And 

Andrew: Michelle, are you, are you inclined, given what you said at the very beginning about your movements through the industry and doing jobs that you didn't think you were ready for, are you inclined to, to put people in the same position that you were put in to challenge them that 

Michelle: way?

Michelle: Look a absolutely. Um, and I think, you know, if we are looking for somebody who is a hundred percent capable to do a job that we might have available, um, we are not [00:26:00] stretching our teams ourselves, our industry enough, um, you know, and, and often that unlikely candidate, um, actually is a, is a really good choice.

Michelle: But, you know, you've gotta be cautious about that. You've gotta go, you know, really think through. What are the key skills and attributes I really need? Um, because often knowledge can be picked up relatively quickly if you've got the right skills and attributes. You know, someone who wants to learn, someone who's intelligent, you know, et cetera.

Michelle: Um, so you know, going well, I really need a mining engineer. Um, or I really need a, you know, an electrical engineer or a reliability engineer. Um, May or may not be true. It just depends on, on the role and the challenge. Yeah. Um, so I think just being much more diverse in our thinking around who's appropriate and then we'll get some really interesting candidates.

Michelle: So, you know, often I, I have put people into roles where, you know, yeah. I'm a little bit nervous about. [00:27:00] You know, and I, but we identify their skills gaps or their capability gaps early, like as I put them in this, is, these are the gaps you're gonna have and this is what we're gonna work on. So I, look, I don't entirely agree on the sink and swim process.

Michelle: Um, yeah. You know, I, I only because I think once people start sinking, they start losing confidence if you don't step in fast enough. I mean, I'm not also not saying coddle or baby them, but. As a leader, we have to identify early on when there are glitches, step in with the coaching and the capability build.

Michelle: Um, rather than leaving it too long and then people have lost confidence. Others have lost confidence in them. It becomes really blatantly obvious that there's, you know, some skills and capabilities gaps. So you can't let that happen. But I think, um, you know, stretching, challenging. Early interventions coaching developing is, is absolutely important to building capability in our industry.

Michelle: And, and I think it's also one of the practical realities. You know, if you look at the number of, [00:28:00] um, engineers in Australia that we are, um, that are graduating, um, across all the different disciplines, and we just look at some of the, um, just based on projections, some of the, the. Amount of roles that we are going to need, you know, for some of the, the, um, whether it's in mining or whether it's in construction over the next sort of few years, um, we really, you know, we, we have a skills gap, um, in, in a number of areas.

Michelle: Okay. Or a ca you know, just a number gap in, in a number of these areas. Um, and we've already got, I think a lot of the, um, you know, More experienced and, and older engineers already, uh, you know, working well into their sort of sixties and seventies in, in some cases. Um, and, and so, you know, there, there's not that group to draw back into the, the market.

Michelle: Um, so we really have to, um, you know, build capability, uh, for those that we've got. Yeah. 

Andrew: What about the, um, place for women [00:29:00] in asset management and mining? Um, I mean, as a successful woman yourself, was it, was it harder than it needed to be to get to where you got to? Was it, and are the opportunities the same and, no.

Andrew: No, that sort of a difficult. Yes. You know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a nervy question because you don't, no one wants to be sort of asking the, the wrong thing. But as a woman who's really succeeded, you know, exceptionally well, literally worked around the world. Yeah. Um, are the experiences here the same as overseas and, and, and, and is there a, uh, a bigger challenge for women?

Michelle: Um, so, So we, we have come a long way. Um, so, you know, when I graduated engineering 30 years ago, there was two women out of 80, um, in, in my class. Um, when I started in mining, I was one of very few, um, women that, that weren't in the administration sort of area. Um, And, and in fact, uh, in 92 was the first [00:30:00] year that women were allowed underground in Australia.

Michelle: So I, I, you know, the year sort of started. Um, so I think we've come a long way. You know, you look at bhp, we're 30 odd percent women. You look at, um, our average in our industry is about 17. Construction's a little lower. I think it's about 14. Um, so, you know, there, there are a lot more. Women in the industry, therefore, a lot more opportunities.

Michelle: I think there's a lot more yet for us to do, especially bringing women into supervisory roles. Um, making roles more available to a diverse range of people by not necessarily having, insisting that they be a particular location, but creating, um, a lot more virtuality. And, and so that's, you know, one of the key things that we're trying to do at Oz at the moment is to create a much more virtual, flexible, um, organization so that people can.

Michelle: Um, contribute no matter where they're or live. Um, yeah, but look at, I think Australia, um, we're about, we're at the, [00:31:00] the better end of the range. Um, but, but still not as good as some. You know, I think if I look at Canada, um, where I've worked, um, a lot more acceptance of, of, uh, women in some of the roles that we're still struggling with, uh, in Australia.

Michelle: Um, but you know, Australia a lot better than in other countries where I've worked, uh, Tanzania. Yeah. For example, in Africa, um, where there were very few, uh, Women moving into engineering roles, moving into maintenance roles, et cetera. Um, cause it just wasn't considered culturally, um, that sort of roles that women would, um, or should aspire to.

Michelle: Um, but some fantastic, uh, women that, that, that were there. Um, and, and also challenges steadily. So how. Yeah. 

Andrew: So how, how were you, how were you seen in Tanzania then? So you're, you're, yeah. I mean, you've literally worked, you've worked, you've done some stuff, ladies. 

Michelle: So, so look, when I became, um, general manager of Bull and [00:32:00] Hulu, which I, I was for a period between us, um, uh, getting a general manager in So i'll there for, uh, But a year or, or a bit more.

Michelle: Um, when I first took on that role, I thought, what have I done here? You know, like, yeah. Did I think this through? Um, and, and I, I was, that was especially so when I'm standing, you know, to be introduced to everybody. And there are about 2000 people in the crowd because, you know, one group had just come up from underground, one group was about to go down into underground, and, you know, I've got the, the head of HR introducing me as the, as the new general manager.

Michelle: And I thought this could go very wrong very quickly. Um, and, and you know, it was interesting though cuz you know, I, I basically said, made a little speech around, you know, that I was so excited to be here in Tanzania that I, you know, wanted to be part of the sort of tan, you know, the, the Bull Hulu family.

Michelle: Um, and, and you know, so I did a bit of a speech, um, and then you, you go to, [00:33:00] People can ask five questions. You know, five people can ask questions. First guy gets up and he was the head of the union and I thought, oh my gosh, this is gonna go tremendously wrong. Because he spun around and now he's starting to talk at the, at the crowd.

Michelle: And I thought, oh, okay, this is, this is gonna potentially go, you know, south. Yeah. Um, and in fact what he said was, That he, he basically said, right, everybody, we have a mama as a general manager. Now, I thought at that point I was like, oh, okay, I'm a mother. I later found out that in Swahili mama means grandmother.

Michelle: But you know, so I had my whole, I have to get my head around the fact that I'm middle aged and in fact, I'm a grandmother while I was in Tanzania. Um, so I'm very over that. Um, but you know, they're right. I was actually three time I was at the age that I was, I was, um, uh, the age that the average life expectancy for Tanzania, um, and certainly the age that, um, most women [00:34:00] would be a, uh, a grandmother.

Michelle: Uh, if you just do the 15 15 15. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So it was interesting the, the way I was dealt with in Tanzania, and, and look, I learned Swahili, I engaged with village elders. The, the elder community, um, in Tanzania is, is men and women. Um, so, you know, there's sort of inequality. Women are seen as very much the, the, the mother figure.

Michelle: So the nurturer, but also the interesting thing in Tanzania, which is what this, uh, this guy's speech was about, is that women are not only nurturing and. Um, kind and, you know, bring up the family. But they also are the ones that make the hard decisions. They tell you what you need to know, when you need to know it.

Michelle: Um, because unfortunately it's, it falls to the women to decide often do we get medicine for a sick child or do I feed the rest of the children? Um, you know, and so they, they literally make life and death decisions, uh, for the family. Um, and so there was this level of resp. [00:35:00] Effect. Um, and then there were some weird situations where, so women weren't allowed to go underground, and if they did go underground, it would have to be, you know, then purged, um, of any, you know, evil spirit or intent.

Michelle: Even though I reminded them that St. Barbara was the patron saint of, uh, of mining. Um, Because, you know, they're very Catholic, very Christian and, and Muslim centric. Um, and uh, but they decided that that wasn't true for me because I wasn't a woman, I was a general manager. Um, and so we got round some of these things just by reclassification, which was really interesting.

Michelle: Um, but I, look, I loved working in Tanzania. It was a fantastic experience. The Tanzania, my Tanzania. Family. Um, my bo in Hulu and, and North Marron and, and, uh, BGI families. Um, just beautiful, beautiful people that really wanted to strive, do right by their families, improve their life and their lifestyles. 

Andrew: So did did you [00:36:00] take that nurturing sense?

Andrew: I get the feeling that you probably work that way anyway. Yeah. Like just listening to you talk, you talk more about people and the. Process of dealing with people and different ways to deal with people, um, as you do about the. Actually talk more about that than the actual, than processes. Yeah. Um, you know, the, the business processes, so clearly you are a person, you're a person-centric Yes.

Andrew: Um, style. But did you, did you sort of learn more about that when you were in Tanzania and as a nurturer, um, and bring that back to your, to, to your work in 

Michelle: the west? Yeah, look, I think absolutely. I think every time I go into a different culture, I not only learn about that culture and, and adapt my style to, to fit into that.

Michelle: So, you know, when I worked in Japan, when I worked in China, when I worked in Lao, um, but you also, you can't help but learn and make that part of your then construct. Um, so, you know, I think certainly, um, Now I bring back this [00:37:00] into, you know, into what I'm doing at the moment with Oz around the absolute need to work collaboratively.

Michelle: You know, it, it, you, you just can't get around. But, but work collaboratively. Um, and then, you know, I think that same, um, you know, again, the ying and yang of the mama, which is, you know, yes, it's nurturing and it's developmental. But it's also about trying to tell people what they need to know. When they need to know it, because Yeah.

Michelle: You know, if you, if you really love someone, you're not gonna let them fail. You're not gonna let them. And, and it's not through mo coddling, it's through, you need to know this at the moment, which is that, you know, yeah. Your behavior is really badly affecting this person, this group, this crowd. Um, This is specifically what you're doing and we need to correct that.

Michelle: We need to do something different, um, or, you know, whatever it might be. Um, but, you know, behavioral ones that we're most hesitant to tell people about, we just let them, you know, um, go. Um, [00:38:00] Which is, you know, and, and I've, I've say to leaders often, like, you're saying you like this person, so you're not gonna tell them about this thing that they're doing.

Michelle: That's really getting people's backs up. You know, like you just gotta tell 'em. Um, really interesting. Now, you know, not everyone likes that. And, and that's, you know, and that, that's a completely different issue in terms of how you then deal with it if people are just, Uncomfortable with taking on feedback.

Michelle: Um, and, and that's a whole other kettle fish, which is something, you know, again, it's a, it's a skill we need to develop from an early age, um, which is, you know, how do you take on this feedback, modify your behavior. Um, 

Andrew: yeah, it just, it just reminded me, we, we both have mentioned that we've got young, you know, yeah.

Andrew: We've got older children, you know, twenties. Yeah. Twenties. And so we're, this is like, it's, it's, it's sort of the same, but it's not, we're at the movies the other night and it was really a very wordy film, you know? Yeah. Um, Amsterdam, it was, you know, lots of talking and [00:39:00] young kids come in about halfway through and they start talking and then people sitting that is, and I had the shits in the end and I went over there and I said, shut up.

Andrew: Shut up. You have to shut up. And so they sort of, and then I went and then came back and, and they, they were better. And then at the end of it, I said to them, listen, you gotta understand people are paying money to come and entertain themselves. Yeah. You guys are sitting here talking, you, you're ruining everyone else's, whatever.

Andrew: Yeah. And so that was fine. Then my daughter said to me, so here's, this is the advice, this is the thing about learning from young people. She said, dad, you've gotta do it quickly. Yes. If they pull their camera out, You will be a star on TikTok. And I went, ok. Yeah, but it's that, it's that thing. But it's like pe I, I guess what made me think of it is that you are saying people need to know about their behavior.

Andrew: That it's out or wrong or off. Yeah. It's a matter of finding a way to tell them in a way that they understand. Yeah. And they, 

Michelle: they're gonna take it on board. Yeah. 

Andrew: Yeah. It's a final Back to you. Yeah. Final thing. Um, [00:40:00] By succeeding or through, I'm not gonna say failing, but No, we all fail. 

Michelle: Things are going well.

Michelle: Um, I, I think, look, I think it's a mixture of both, but I, I think, um, when things do go wrong, when we fail, when something, you know, and I, and I've had some complete mess ups, uh, I was gonna say the other word, but, um, uh, I remember, but, uh, Reflecting. Well again, trying to identify it as early as you can and, and so, you know, some of my biggest mess ups were persisting, just trying to do it harder, you know, deeper, stronger, whatever, persisting.

Michelle: Well beyond what should have been a let's just stop and try a different approach or try something different. And you know, when I look back at the thing, whenever I regret [00:41:00] something or I look back at something and I go. God, I should have done that differently. It is typically either I didn't step in when I should have, or I didn't stop something soon enough that was going off the rails and it just went further off the rails.

Michelle: Um, and, and you know, so I think those things are important for us to have, like if, if you are constantly successful, um, I don't think you'll have the depth of humanity, the depth of, of personality that you have when you have a mix of things that do. Yeah. And look, if everything goes wrong all the time, you're gonna be a pretty sad as well.

Michelle: So it, it's through that balance that we become deeper, more interesting, more capable human beings. Um, so, you know, if I could have a wish for someone, it would be not that you are blissfully successful all the time and not that you are, you know, always not successful all the time. Cuz both those ends are, uh, for [00:42:00] me, not, not fantastic.

Michelle: It's that you have a mix, but that you'd learn from both, you know, what did I do that well? What did our team do? Or what did others do that really helped us be successful there? Um, and then, you know, What could I have done differently to have averted, um, that, uh, that failure, um, or that mistake. 

Andrew: That's a great place to end.

Andrew: So Michelle, I've really, I've really enjoyed talking to you. Excellent. Really fun and really illuminating as well. So thank you. Thanks very much for your time and reliability 

Michelle: hero. Excellent. Thank you all. Stay safe.